HY HU estimation EV 3bs vs flat shallow game

    • Kriegphilosopher
      Kriegphilosopher
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 02.03.2012 Beiträge: 1.308
      Hello, I hope you don´t mind I´m writing to you in the primitive laneguage... my czech comunity is not so rich in the quantity HU HJs and regulars as yours, so I´m turning to help here. If would not somebody understand to a sence of any sentence, I have no problem to write that sonst oder in deutsche :-)

      I need to improve the knowledge in a expectation of shallow play hands like K5o, K2s, 65s, 97o, J6s, Q7o, 85s... versus more-less fishy oponnent without any specific ultra exploitative postflop reads. We are on a bigblind, oponent openraises (we haven ´t got sample on his shallow openraise range, let´s talking about more variantes like he opens 40%, 55%, 70%...) and we are oop with some middling hand, low conector and unconected high card above mentioned and also let´s talking about different stack depth - in particular 10-14bb deep, but also 14-16 bb and there are also regulars, which prefer 8,5bb deep flat call 78o, 65s

      I have seen mostly regulars/coaches 3bet shoving K3s and 65s 11bb deep versus almost everybody, but my coach had teached me to flat those hands, all those hands, which I moentioned above. He told against fish you have got biggest edge postflop... my feeling from the learnt playing is that I too much check/folding the flop (low Kx, lower gappers doesn´t hiting so well) and when I´m watching some video, there they are 3bshoving a bit more then me.

      I´m looking for some boundary between expectation of flat and 3b shove acording the stack dept, hand properties and potential vilian´s leaks... so I would welcome your opinions like b.s. I´m 3bshoving this hand10bb deep and 12bb deep I mostly flat that and most luxuryous would be database filter comparition bb/100 by action

      Thank you very much ;-)
  • 8 Antworten
    • MPN25
      MPN25
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 26.05.2011 Beiträge: 1.965
      Hi Kriegphilosopher,

      i want to take your focus on this Calculator, from husng.com

      Also you can read a free eBook from Mersenneary.

      So far,
      MPN25
    • Kriegphilosopher
      Kriegphilosopher
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 02.03.2012 Beiträge: 1.308
      thank you, I could use ICMizer, but i know which 3betshove is/isn´t profitable


      what I don´t know is, if is more EV in flat in comparison with 3bet... postflop game can´t count any software... only way how to figure out is look out to the rich databases :-)
    • meistermieses
      meistermieses
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 31.12.2006 Beiträge: 11.991
      It is better to flat some hands like QJo, JT, T9 and so on, because of good playability with shalow stacks too. Hands like K3s, Q2s, should you jam or maybe fold.
    • Kriegphilosopher
      Kriegphilosopher
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 02.03.2012 Beiträge: 1.308
      Original von meistermieses
      It is better to flat some hands like QJo, JT, T9 and so on, because of good playability with shalow stacks too. Hands like K3s, Q2s, should you jam or maybe fold.
      yep and what are you think the 15bb deep optimal play is K5s versus fish?

      Q8+, J8+, T8+, 97+ are obv good hand to flat, but I´m not sure in case of bottom, thus Q6-7, J6-7, T7, 85, 75, 65, how do you play those hands? and again we can sort that by stack size and suit/off suit property

      Thank you
    • meistermieses
      meistermieses
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 31.12.2006 Beiträge: 11.991
      You must look to his openraise frequency and his generall game approach. Is he a tight or loose fish.
    • Karcist
      Karcist
      Diamant
      Dabei seit: 30.03.2007 Beiträge: 219
      Original von Kriegphilosopher
      Original von meistermieses
      It is better to flat some hands like QJo, JT, T9 and so on, because of good playability with shalow stacks too. Hands like K3s, Q2s, should you jam or maybe fold.
      yep and what are you think the 15bb deep optimal play is K5s versus fish?

      Q8+, J8+, T8+, 97+ are obv good hand to flat, but I´m not sure in case of bottom, thus Q6-7, J6-7, T7, 85, 75, 65, how do you play those hands? and again we can sort that by stack size and suit/off suit property

      Thank you
      In my opinion the hands that you should start to fold first are offsuited, unconnected and low highcard value type hands..... not sure how fish tendencies are at your bi level but I would probably fold stuff like J6o, 85o, (75o, 65o) and flat all the suited stuff vs a readless Opponent for 15bb
    • Kriegphilosopher
      Kriegphilosopher
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 02.03.2012 Beiträge: 1.308
      Original von Karcist
      ... vs a readless Opponent for 15bb
      and 10bb deep?

      Maistermeses: so what is your plan for passive fish with 40% open raise and loose agressive fish with 70% openraise and 100% Cbet? and what is your plan, when it is 1. tournament a you haven´t got their shallow stats?

      Thank you
    • Karcist
      Karcist
      Diamant
      Dabei seit: 30.03.2007 Beiträge: 219
      Original von Kriegphilosopher
      Original von Karcist
      ... vs a readless Opponent for 15bb
      and 10bb deep?
      ....
      For 10bb i would start to fold stuff like K4o, Q6o, J7o, 96o, 85o, 75o, 65o but i still don't fold the suited ones of the hands you mentioned .... imo it's very close with Q6s-, J6s-, T6s-, 95s, 85s and you have to be very solid postflop to play them +EV compared to folding.