Streikorganisation für Pokerstars

  • 29 Antworten
    • BadBeatHH
      BadBeatHH
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 20.10.2015 Beiträge: 266
      kann evtl jemand auf deutsch zusammenfassen um was es geht!?
    • klaus8003
      klaus8003
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 28.08.2006 Beiträge: 1.933
      Geplanter Streik der PokerStars Regs vom 1.12-3.12 um gegen die aktuell geplanten Änderungen zu protestieren.
    • jimbo0602
      jimbo0602
      Einsteiger
      Dabei seit: 12.11.2011 Beiträge: 42
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
    • AyCaramba44
      AyCaramba44
      Black
      Dabei seit: 27.04.2010 Beiträge: 11.710
      Original von jimbo0602
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
      Ist bei Pokerstars schon eingeplannt und es werden Sachen auch leicht zurückgenommen. Am Ende kommt dann genau das raus, was Pokerstars geplant hat und die Spieler sind trotzdem alle froh und fühlen sich super wegen dem Streik und das sie es Pokerstars gezeigt haben. :f_thumbsup:
    • WildRose86
      WildRose86
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 22.01.2010 Beiträge: 527
      Auch wenn es nichts nützt, besser etwas dagegen tun/probieren, als sich kampflos auf der Nase tanzen zu lassen.

      Idealerweise sollte man nicht nur die Regs, sondern auch versuchen die Hobby/Freizeitspieler in diesen Streik mit einzubinden. Ist zwar ein schwieriges Unterfangen, aber man sollte niemals nie sagen.
    • jimbo0602
      jimbo0602
      Einsteiger
      Dabei seit: 12.11.2011 Beiträge: 42
      Original von WildRose86
      Auch wenn es nichts nützt, besser etwas dagegen tun/probieren, als sich kampflos auf der Nase tanzen zu lassen.

      Idealerweise sollte man nicht nur die Regs, sondern auch versuchen die Hobby/Freizeitspieler in diesen Streik mit einzubinden. Ist zwar ein schwieriges Unterfangen, aber man sollte niemals nie sagen.
      naja ich bin ganz ehrlich : ich spiele zwar viel Poker und auch auf stars aber diese ganzen Bonus systeme, VIP programme und was es alles gibt hat mich noch nie wirklich interessiert, in live casinos gibt es sowas ja auch nicht. ausserdem bin ich der Meinung das es nur was bringen würde wenn mind. 80 % aller die bei stars registriert nicht spielen und zwar für einen längeren Zeitraum als 3 tage bzw. sämtliche Highroller sollten streiken für sagen wir 1-2 monate (aber wer wird das schon tun ?). Um ein paar regs/hobby spieler auf den micro´/Lowstakes die 3 tage streiken wird sich in der Firmenzentrale niemand auch nur ansatzweise interessieren
    • Beitrag gelöscht

    • TJay68
      TJay68
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 29.01.2012 Beiträge: 1.370
      jimbo pls
    • jimbo0602
      jimbo0602
      Einsteiger
      Dabei seit: 12.11.2011 Beiträge: 42
      Original von TJay68
      jimbo pls

      was ?
    • FredDoof
      FredDoof
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 08.06.2014 Beiträge: 1.320
      Fische könnte man doch leicht über Facebook/Twitter etc. mit ins Boot kriegen, oder?
    • TJay68
      TJay68
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 29.01.2012 Beiträge: 1.370
      Bestimmt.

      Ich denke, dass "viel" rakende Fische (also die, die dauernd einzahlen und es verpusten) sowieso immer auf dem Laufenden sind, da es einfach so viele große Pokernewsseiten gibt. Ps.de , Pokernews, Pokerfirma etc pp.
    • WebInnoVision
      WebInnoVision
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 09.08.2013 Beiträge: 3.731
      Original von jimbo0602
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
      :facepalm:

      Mach es halt für Stars noch angenehmer. :appl:
    • jimbo0602
      jimbo0602
      Einsteiger
      Dabei seit: 12.11.2011 Beiträge: 42
      Original von WebInnoVision
      Original von jimbo0602
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
      :facepalm:

      Mach es halt für Stars noch angenehmer. :appl:

      dann streikt ihr mal eure 3 tage mit 500 mann( wenn überhaupt). Die chefetage bepisst sich bestimmt jetzt schon
    • FredDoof
      FredDoof
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 08.06.2014 Beiträge: 1.320
      Original von jimbo0602
      Original von WebInnoVision
      Original von jimbo0602
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
      :facepalm:

      Mach es halt für Stars noch angenehmer. :appl:

      dann streikt ihr mal eure 3 tage mit 500 mann( wenn überhaupt). Die chefetage bepisst sich bestimmt jetzt schon
      Was hast du davon wenn du stars unterstützt?
    • EddiGonzalez
      EddiGonzalez
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 04.07.2006 Beiträge: 4.950
      aus dem 2+2 thread:

      Re: Joint strike on the 1st–3rd of December .... (REGISTRATION)
      This "strike" I think is not well thought out and may be counterproductive.

      You are not employees withdrawing your labour, you are a group of professional parasites who produce no end product and whose purpose is to prey on the weak who like you inhabit a gambling/gaming platform.

      If you feel that Pokerstars (Amaya) have genuinely broken any legal agreements then you should sue them.

      If they haven't then all they are doing is putting up rake (reducing rake back and rewards).

      So if you don't like this then play somewhere else.

      You are not employees, there is no trade union, you have no employment rights and you will gain zero public sympathy or support, firstly because the public consider poker as a vice, and secondly because even if you could convince the public, regulators, lawyers or anyone else that poker is not a vice, but that it is a hard working job that you are dedicated to, then when they find out that your raison d'etre within poker is to prey on the weak, then none of the aforementioned groups will have even an iota of sympathy for you having to pay more rake on your poker activities.

      This is just pure business, and you as "pro" poker players should understand this more than anyone. Amaya own the company, they want to maximise their revenue, and their chosen strategy is to discourage long term winning players.

      This is a simple strategy that most/all of the gaming industry deploys.

      It started with Pokerstars introducing Casino games, because of course a player on tilt, or chasing losses, or a weaker player plain and simple, can now lose their money to Amaya in double quick time on casino games instead of being the value on a cash game table and giving a big percentage of their losses to you and therefore way less to Pokerstars, i.e. only losing some rake to Pokerstars.

      Furthermore, the more successful pro players become and the more they build their bank rolls, the greater their advantage over weaker players obviously becomes.

      Because some cash games are "bank roll" games, if you are winning your confidence goes up, if you're winning you can employ coaches, buy software, handle losses better, tilt less, swap equity in comps, consult with your peers on strategy, etc etc etc.

      So I think you have to accept that Pokerstars don't want your type around any more, and if you do want to stick around then you will have to pay them more tax (rake).

      Themz iz the roolz, unfortunately, the rules which they are at liberty to change, and these are the basic laws of business, deploy the strategy that makes the most profit and that achieves the most growth.

      A big misconception that I detect most of the pros who are complaining about the changes seem to have, is that killing future potential nose bleed cash game heroes by making mid to higher stakes harder to beat with higher rake and thus blocking the gateway to the nosebleeds will have a big negative trickle down effect on new players
      wanting to start playing so that they one day too can be like Ike Haxton. (or like Isildur1, Jungleman, Ivey and Antonius etc)

      I think those days are long gone when it was the cash game stars that were one of the major procurement tools to excite and entice potential new players into the game.

      You and I know the names of the top players who are currently killing cash games at high stakes, I could name about 20, but none or hardly any of these players are known to the wider public, or to potential new account sign ups for Pokerstars.

      It is now all about MTT glory in the shape of televised tournaments, the Shark Cage, Spin & Gos and the like when it comes to Pokerstars' marketing strategy for procuring new players.

      I feel that they really don't give two $****s about high stakes cash, and think about it, why would they when a $1K/$2K game gets raked about the same amount from a pot as a 50c/$1 game.

      Anyone with poker knowledge knows that the smaller games are the real cash spinners/cash cows in poker, they erode players rolls much more consistently and with much more certainty, they don't wipe out players' entire rolls quickly, and importantly smaller stakes players can basically be consistent losers without it hurting them much and a lot of the time they can be almost unaware that they are losing their money consistently, or at least it becomes a kind of acceptable regular expense for them.

      So as I said, Pokersrars don't give 2 $hits about higher stakes cash games or that no longer having viable playing gateways to move up and up the stakes may or probably will put off a small number of aspirational cash game grinders whose dream is to move up the levels and become cash game grinder millionaires.

      Put simply, Pokerstars make way more money, way more consistently from weak players than they do from strong players (when analysed properly), the analysis including that a strong player may make a lot of rake for Pokerstars by playing huge volume, but included in this huge volume is winning chunks from weaker players, and had the weaker players not faced such strong players then they would have given far more rake to Pokerstars and/or done their money on casino games to Pokerstars.

      I do accept/understand that the issue of not rolling forwards/honouring some rewards programs for SNE players is bordering on the dirty, but aside from that my view is that they are otherwise doing nothing wrong or illegal with the changes, it is just pure business.

      I am playing Devil's Advocate to some extent in a lot of what I have typed above, and I do have sympathy and empathy with the goal posts being moved by Pokerstars and it therefore affecting many pro players' livelihoods, as I did used to play full time, mainly live cash for 3 years.

      However, (and I was 100% aware of this at the time, as well as being aware of it now), that it was and is a largely parasitical existence being a poker "pro".

      I would be lying if I said that I wasn't delighted to see the drunk rich player join my cash game table at 3 a.m. or for a player to sit down in a mixed game cash game and not have a clue at Stud games for example.

      I didn't wish these thing to happen, but when they did it was my "job" to seize upon them like a lion would prey on a weak and injured gazelle.

      By the way, I wasn't a lion, I was more of a domestic cat, as I played with only moderate success in the live game, and my online results are poor.

      But poker is dog eat dog , and whatever way you want to dress it up, e.g. "I've worked really hard on my game, studied hard watching videos and put in tons of volume etc......", the bottom line is that you can still only thrive and survive by either directly or indirectly preying on the weaker players in what is a far worse than zero sum game in the poker economy when you consider the vast amounts of rake and juice paid on line and the additional expenses incurred when playing live poker.

      So I am very sorry to have to take the opposite line to most, but I do firmly believe that you, as poker pros, have not been wronged against by Pokerstars (excluding perhaps the 2016 SNE issue)

      So I believe that, accepting that you are lions chasing gazelles, that this should be your mind set, instead of the current mind set which is that you have been unfairly treated by Pokerstars.

      It is quite literally a jungle out there in the poker world, so when conditions change or get worse you have to adapt to conditions.

      This "strike" in my opinion will have little or no effect and may even be counterproductive.

      First of all, like any strike, it's very likely that many players who have pledged to take part will change their minds, either because they think it will have no effect, or because they are scared that it may damage their account status with Pokerstars (see below for more details), or because they will effectively double cross fellow strikers by seizing the opportunity to play in weaker fields during the strike period.

      You cannot rule out that Pokerstars might be angered by the strike to the point where they close strikers' accounts using some obscure right to terminate an account clause, which no doubt exists somewhere in the bowels of the small print.

      It is unlikely they would do this, but it is possible.

      Remember that in this strike situation you are dealing with human beings (the people in charge at Amaya) and not with numbers or cards.

      Their reaction could be anything........ their response range is huge, ranging from at one extreme, "oh $hit, these poker pros mean business, we'll cave in and grant loads of concessions and climb downs to placate them so that we don't lose their custom"...... right through to at the other end of the scale their reaction being, "fu&* you mother fu&*ers, you wanna go on strike, well fine, we'll put you on permanent strike because we are closing your accounts".

      Anything within these range of responses is possible as you are dealing with a combination of people, emotions, business and especially when you are dealing with egos, of which big business owners usually have exceptionally large egos.

      So my advice and solution, if indeed there is a solution, is to take the more subtle approach of "walking quietly with a big stick", so to speak.

      All the points regarding perceived unfairness have been made at length by poker pros, so Amaya are completely aware of these, and they may even agree with some of them and might even make some minor concessions, if they believe it is in their best business interests to do so. So I think you have all done enough on that front.

      I think the most likely outcome of a strike is that it will just harden Amaya's resolve against poker pros who in Amaya's view are bleeding revenue away from the weaker and/or smaller stakes players who Amaya feel are their "marks", their "fish", and their "tilters" and not yours.

      So a strike might have them saying in the board room, "see, look at these players, thinking they have a god given right to make a living out of a platform that we own and that we run, so f&% them".

      So my advised approach is to play the whole situation in a more "long game" way.

      I wouldn't go on strike, but I would seriously look into the possibility of a collective of players (most of whom will already be successful so have some funds available for investment) and jointly setting up and owning your own poker playing platform.

      If you were to do this is in a sensible, steady, as low a risk way as possible (by low risk I mean by only conservatively spending smallish amounts of your net worth on the project (then if you work hard collectively ,as you already do playing poker), and if you are right about Amaya's policies killing the long term future of the game, then in time your platform will become the market leader, and you will also do very well financially out of it.

      To execute such a project would take a lot of concerted, committed and collective effort, but I believe it is possible.

      From a financial perspective, if you can get the support of 1000 players to go on strike then presumably you could raise a couple or maybe a few million dollars from a group of 1000 players fairly easily.

      From an ability to succeed in the project perspective, well there are a lot of brilliant minds within the on line poker community, so the collective power of these minds would far outweigh traditional business people who often are pretty good at business but can often be rather mediocre and even backward when it comes applying a business model to the gaming or poker industry.

      I read a lot of players' posts on Twitter. Okay, some posts are not that great but it stands out to me that some posts are border line genius, or if not genius, then at an exceptionally high level of thinking.

      Just to pick one name out of the air and one specific tweet made yesterday, Faraz Jaka posted a blog of his on sleep deprivation and it was an exceptional blog by someone of an extraordinary level of intelligence.

      There are numerous people like this in the poker world, so I say stop moaning about Amaya, just do your best to play within their new environment, and if you are angry and motivated enough then pool your collective resources, minds and skills and crush them in the long term by building a far better poker platform than theirs.


      Last edited by SageDonkey; Yesterday at 03:50 PM.
    • WebInnoVision
      WebInnoVision
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 09.08.2013 Beiträge: 3.731
      Cliffs? Echt jetzt....
    • limpinbarney
      limpinbarney
      Black
      Dabei seit: 12.02.2009 Beiträge: 7.986
      Original von FredDoof
      Original von jimbo0602
      Original von WebInnoVision
      Original von jimbo0602
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
      :facepalm:

      Mach es halt für Stars noch angenehmer. :appl:

      dann streikt ihr mal eure 3 tage mit 500 mann( wenn überhaupt). Die chefetage bepisst sich bestimmt jetzt schon
      Was hast du davon wenn du stars unterstützt?
      Von unterstützen kann ja keine Rede sein. An den 3 Tagen werden sich auf jeden Fall nen Haufen Leute freuen, weil die Tische so soft sind.
    • FredDoof
      FredDoof
      Bronze
      Dabei seit: 08.06.2014 Beiträge: 1.320
      Original von limpinbarney
      Original von FredDoof
      Original von jimbo0602
      Original von WebInnoVision
      Original von jimbo0602
      wird doch eh nichts bringen
      :facepalm:

      Mach es halt für Stars noch angenehmer. :appl:

      dann streikt ihr mal eure 3 tage mit 500 mann( wenn überhaupt). Die chefetage bepisst sich bestimmt jetzt schon
      Was hast du davon wenn du stars unterstützt?
      Von unterstützen kann ja keine Rede sein. An den 3 Tagen werden sich auf jeden Fall nen Haufen Leute freuen, weil die Tische so soft sind.
      Ne komische Mentalität der Menschheit. Alles was sich kurzfristig lohnt wird ausgenutzt, auch wenn der longterm ev noch so mies ist...
      Erinnert mich sehr an Polizei oder Juristen. Wenn sich jeder an die Regeln halten würde bräuchte man solche Leute nicht, dann müsste jeder weniger arbeiten...
    • limpinbarney
      limpinbarney
      Black
      Dabei seit: 12.02.2009 Beiträge: 7.986
      Auch wenn alle immer gerne von "Pokercommunity" reden. Dieses Spiel ist Kapitalismus in Reinstform. Vergessen manche immer gern.

      Woher weißt Du, dass der longterm EV für jeden negativ ist? Für Highstakesbumhunter dürften die Änderungen sogar postitiv sein..
    • 1
    • 2