Stoxtrader - Cheating Vorwürfe. Update: Stox zurückgetreten, 2+2 distanziert sich von CR+Stox

    • Nichtschwimmer
      Dabei seit: 19.02.2007 Beiträge: 6.974
      - Stoxtrader gibt Multiaccounting zu
      - Es gilt als fast sicher, dass er den seit langem Collusion verdächtigten Account 40putts gespielt hat und sich dieses Jahr dann einen neuen Account gemacht hat, mit dem er die selben Games, Gegner usw anonym gespielt hat
      Update: Stox gibt zu, 40putts & bulltf0rdtuff auf FTP sowie knockstiff & gr3atvlewbr0 auf Stars gespielt zu haben. Diese Accounts werden seit langem verdächtigt, mit Kinetica/LittleZen gemeinsam colludet zu haben.
      - Es werden allgemeine Vorwürfe gegen Cardrunners/Stoxpoker erhoben, so soll u.a. FTP betrogen worden sein.


      Kurze Zusammenfassung:

      viffers gelöschter 2p2 Post, die Anschuldigungen darin sind wohl von einem ehemaligen CR/SP-Mitarbeiter (möglicherweise Leatherass):

      Statistische Untersuchung der Accounts 40putts/Kinetica:

      Wichtige Posts
      Original von Stoxtrader
      It is with a heavy heart that I must announce my resignation as a stoxpoker coach today. I have put the company in a difficult position given the recent negative publicity surrounding my breaking poker sites terms of service, and refusal to publicly explain my January 2010 account switch. It is true that I had multiple accounts, though it is not true that I ever used them to gain an advantage or played them simultaneously. I had two accounts at both pokerstars and FTP for 4 years - stoxtrader at both sites was used to prep and produce poker training videos. I generally played lower stakes than my normal games on that account. I also played on 40putts at FTP and knockstiff at pokerstars - these were the only accounts I played my normal games on until January 2010. In January I decided that I needed to switch names. I cannot say why I made that decision, but it is the same reason why I have not been active in the 2+2 forums defending myself and it is something that is ongoing and I cannot make public. I played on these new accounts (bulltf0rdtuff and gr3atvlewbr0) for approximately one month. None of those accounts have been in use since and I will be taking an indefinite break from playing any poker at all. Because of this, Stoxpoker and I will be parting ways. In regards to the collusion allegations between 40putts and Kinetica and Littlezen and Knockstiff, they are false. In the past I have discussed poker strategy with kinetica and littlezen and we practice similar table selection strategies. I am confident that a full review of our play by the pokersites involved will corroborate this. I apologize for breaking the terms of service of the pokersites by having multiple accounts and hopefully I can continue to contribute to 2+2 and stoxpoker as a regular member in the future and not a representative of Stoxpoker.


      Original von Mason Malmuth
      Hi Everyone: Since there are still unanswered questions, we have decided to temporarily suspend our relationship with CardRunners/StoxPoker. In the past, these companies and their corresponding principals, and this includes Nick Grudzien, have always dealt with us at the highest level of integrity, and we are confident that once all the facts are made public our relationship with them can be returned to normal. However, at this point in time, we feel that this is the best decision for Two Plus Two to make. Best wishes, Mason


      Original von GreenPlastic
      Hey everyone, I have addressed the major issues from Viffer's post/this thread below.

      "Taylor/CR knew Brian was multi-accounting, tried to cover it up, and Taylor actually encouraged Brian to get an office so he could play on a secret account"

      To think that I would encourage Brian to do this, or to tell him to set up an office to do this, is completely ridiculous. Beyond the T&C issues, it's good for the company for our pros to be playing on their poker names, and more importantly, it's the right thing to do. There's just no logical reason why I would want Brian, or any CR pro, to be anonymous or to be breaking site rules. I found out about Brian's MA'ing sometime during the WSOP of 2008, which I believe was a few months after the multi-accounting started. I was very adamant that Brian should play on his normal account. I believe it was in late June or early July that allegations started to be posted at 2p2, and eventually, everything came out in August when Brian admitted to the MA'ing.

      "Taylor played on other CR people's accounts. One time, I watched Taylor play on Ezra's account."

      In June of 2008, I was living in a house with ~6 CR employees (we put them up in a house for the WSOP). Ezra was playing on Cake Poker and a bunch of us were sitting around playing poker, drinking beers, hanging out, etc. For a period of a couple of minutes (I'm guessing 5-10 hands), I played on his account. Ezra was tilty and we were all sort of laughing at how bad he was running, so I offered to step in and play a few hands while he was freaking out. After a couple of minutes, he got back on and played.

      "At a party, I complained to Taylor about multi-accounting and how all the regulars were using different accounts. He told me I should just multi-account as well."

      This conversation took place at a CR party in July of 2007. I remember this because I had a falling out with this person and this is around the last time we've ever had a friendly conversation. At that time, online poker multi-accounting was very common and many of the high stakes players did it. The sites didn't enforce these rules as well. I don't remember the details or context of the conversation, and I regret ever suggesting someone should multi-account.

      TFPT accusations

      There was also a post and some questions to follow from people about our TFPT promotion at FTP. I want to make it clear that the ex-employee that posted does not have detailed knowledge of our relationship with FTP and the inner-workings of the TFPT promotion. It would simply be insane for us to defraud FTP, as was suggested in his post. We have a great relationship with them, and they have been very supportive of our business as we have of theirs. When I returned home last night, I had received an email from the poster explaining his frustrations to me and apologizing for his contribution to the drama that has evolved. I spoke to him at length on the phone yesterday about the issues and motivations behind the post. He admitted to me that he didn't have first hand knowledge of our agreement with FTP, and part of the motivation for his post was his frustrations with the end of his relationship with CardRunners. The details of our specific arrangement with FTP will remain private.

      Stoxtrader situation:

      Finally, regarding the Stoxtrader situation, I'd like to clear up a few things. First, there have been some posts stating that we have long been aware of this multi-accounting and collusion claims and are trying to cover them up. This is just not true. In his blog and on the forums, Nick always said that his accounts were private. In retrospect, I should have pressed the issue. It's one thing to have private accounts on sites you don't make videos on, but it's not acceptable to have multiple accounts when it is against the T&C's.

      I had no knowledge that Nick was using the 40putts account until sometime in mid January. Nick felt it was important to tell me about a personal situation that required him to share that he had been playing on that account. Nick agreed that when he resolved his personal situation and took some time away from playing, he would make a post explaining that he was now playing publicly on the stoxtrader account. During our conversation, I asked Nick about the fact that 40putts had been accused of collusion in the past. Nick assured me, and continues to assure me, that these accusations are false and that there was no collusion with this or any of his accounts. Based on all my interactions with Nick in the past I have no reason to believe this is not true. He also reminded me that Stars had investigated his account and found no wrongdoing.

      Recently, an anonymous poster made a post to 2p2 outing Nick for his stoxtrader, 40putts, and some new screen names that he recently created, as well as collusion suspicions (and maybe other things, I don't have access to that post). I was unaware that Nick had created these new accounts or was even still playing poker at this time. At the end of last week, amidst collusion accusations, Nick admitted to playing on secret accounts. Since then, I have been in touch with FTP to give them the information of the accounts in question and to provide the background on the situation that I have detailed here.

      Regardless of what happens with the collusion accusations, my company needs to set a precedent that it is not okay to violate the T&C's as representative of Stoxpoker or CardRunners. In the past, we have been more lenient on people for MA'ing situations, but we will adhere to a strict policy going forward. It was mutually agreed upon that Nick would be disassociated from CardRunners/Stoxpoker, both from a pro, financial, and management standpoint. I expect this transition to take at least a few weeks to be complete, and the decision is final.


      Ich denke dass ich hier keine illegalen Links gepostet habe, falls doch was nicht in Ordnung sein sollte bitte entsprechend editieren/löschen.
  • 189 Antworten
    • AnJo280
      Dabei seit: 18.01.2009 Beiträge: 5.677
      Original von Nichtschwimmer

      - Stoxtrader gibt Multiaccounting zu
      quote dazu bitte!
      ich hab das so verstanden, dass er shotstacking "zugibt"(nicht als problem ansieht) und zum multiaccaounting keinen Kommentar abgeben wollte.
    • PaulPanter
      Dabei seit: 13.11.2007 Beiträge: 7.972
      jo zumindest auf 2+2 hat stoxtrader nicht zugegeben, multiaccounting betrieben zu haben.


      "There are online poker players who have used 2nd screenames for the purpose of deceiving others into giving them action, evading taxes, collusion, entering multiple times into the same tournament, ghosting, to obscure previous results and stats, to clear extra bonuses, to circumvent affiliate CPA or rakeback rules, to bypass the pokersites shortstack buy-in time limitation, to teamplay, to share action with others at the same table, to chip dump or otherwise engage in underhanded actions I do not know about. I have never done any of these things. Beyond that I cannot and will not comment on the screename issue, nor can I say why I cannot elaborate further other than to say that my reasons for that are serious and personal.

      I have played a shortstack some of the time, I will do this when games are tough and I don't want to just not play, when there is a good game at a "shallow" table, in CAP NL games, or I think it's the most profitable strategy for that particular table. My poker results are shown over my last 650k hands or so in the HEM screenshot below, and they are sorted by stack size. A good percentage of the "under 50bbs" stack size games are from cap tables, where the buy-in is 30bbs. The rest are from 20-40 BB buy-in at "shallow" tables and a 20-50BB buyin at normal tables. The collusion allegation is laughable and completely false.

    • Nichtschwimmer
      Dabei seit: 19.02.2007 Beiträge: 6.974

      "I played one account for 4 years, I concurrently used a different account to make training videos, that is the only thing it was used for. Two months ago I played a third account for one month because I felt safer doing so. Right now I am not playing but hope to be able to play again after a suitable break." -Stoxtrader

      = 3 accounts
    • 00Visor
      Dabei seit: 26.11.2007 Beiträge: 14.396
      Als Cliffnote vielleicht noch die Antwort von Bryce, die nicht ganz so dämlich wirkt wie die von stoxtrader:

      Ich denke, man sollte abwarten, was sich da noch herrausstellt. Ich will mir noch kein Urteil machen.

      Yes. I'll throw out some caveats, though, and am going to address this as if everyone can see the e-mail, since I'm assuming that it's circulating in the background now.

      Nick was heavily involved in actively managing/maintaining SP in its early days before I joined up with the website, and for quite a while afterwards. He’s never made much of a secret of the fact that he played on an account other than ‘stoxtrader’ for years.

      The TFTP is not so much false as misconstrued as badly as possible; I'll leave it to Jim to explain the details of how we process TFTP members if he sees fit (he's in Dublin right now). FTP is not being hustled out of anything, in any case (and, for what it's worth, we'd be morons to try).

      The comments regarding Leatherass and his reasons for leaving SP are false. LA is ****ed up. We’ll leave it at that.

      The comments regarding the SP video process are false. All videos are watched by the production team, obviously, who vets to some small extent. The videos of new coaches and coaches who’ve scored low recently are put through a review panel. Jason Ho made it in before we had a formal review system set up, and given that he was able to convince us that he was a winning small stakes grinder and that his videos were generally well received we obviously ended up with a debacle on our hands, which was embarrassing.

      Regarding people knowing that BT had a second account and that Taylor or someone else has sat in Ezra’s seat at some point I can’t verify, but neither of these things would shock me. I’ve looked over Ezra’s shoulder and given his tips, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if someone has sat in his seat and given him tips while he looked over their shoulder. Obviously some people take issue with this.

      Regarding the ‘friend’ that had a video put up on CR without review I can’t vouch for that individual case, but CR follows the same review process for videos that we do, and has been doing it longer than we have.

      Nick recently changed accounts. I just got off the phone with Jim about this (given that he’s in Dublin and actually awake). Nick is going to have to make a personal decision about whether to out the reason that he recently changed accounts. To my own surprise there actually is a good reason, and it’s ****ed up. And yes, that’s a bull**** answer to the question of what’s going on, but it’s ultimately up to him whether or not to out this. He is not colluding.

      The rest of the e-mail is basically speculation and slander.

      I will stake my entire reputation and poker career on the truth of the above.

      This 2/3rds answer with minimal details won’t be satisfying for some, and understandably so, but going into details beyond what I’ve written gets into information that is either somewhat intimate to the business or personally intimate and so it’s not my place to out it (it comes down to both Jim and Nick).
    • Mangalitza
      Dabei seit: 27.08.2007 Beiträge: 1.510
      Das ist wieder mal,so krank!!!!!Online Poker ist bald tod und fu FTP!!
    • morsken
      Dabei seit: 12.09.2007 Beiträge: 286
      Original von Mangalitza
      Das ist wieder mal,so krank!!!!!Online Poker ist bald tod und fu FTP!!
      bester comment ever.
    • SteveWarris
      Dabei seit: 28.03.2007 Beiträge: 5.694
      Tja is ja nix neues das den Online-Highstakes gerne mal alles ausgenutzt wird so gut es geht.
    • BB8888
      Dabei seit: 03.03.2006 Beiträge: 821
      Jo aber echt, alles Schweine. Früher war noch Mann gegen Mann und zur Not hat man den Gegner dann halt erschossen, wenn man glaubte er hat nicht ehrlich gespielt. Keine Ehre die Typen.


    • kearney
      Dabei seit: 13.04.2007 Beiträge: 6.694
      Ums kurz zu sagen: wer heute nicht "multiaccounted" ist selber schuld... Machen ja alle Highstakespros (praios :heart:) , von daher wayne.
    • NoSekiller
      Dabei seit: 29.08.2006 Beiträge: 7.727
      Original von kearney
      Ums kurz zu sagen: wer heute nicht "multiaccounted" ist selber schuld... Machen ja alle Highstakespros (praios :heart:) , von daher wayne.
      ich möchte hier niemanden verteidigen oder so...aber afaik hat praios nur mehrere Accounts auf verschiedenen Skins gehabt, was absolut legal ist.
    • Funkmaster
      Dabei seit: 30.04.2005 Beiträge: 4.073
      kann mal jemand ausführlichere cliffnotes zu den betrugsvorwürfen gegenüber ftp posten. ich verstehe da leider nur bahnhof.

      und was sind die genauen vorwürfe gegen stox? "nur" multiaccounting? ich meine da wird seitens ftp doch eh nicht konsequent gegen vorgegangen, stichwort: guy laliberté, pummelfee123, eli elezra meinte auch irgendwann mal er habe ~30 ftp nicks oder so^^ insofern hat kearny schon recht.

      würde mich wie gesagt über eine kurze zusammenfassung freuen.
    • bernie0303
      Dabei seit: 30.09.2008 Beiträge: 3.390
      Original von Nichtschwimmer

      "I played one account for 4 years, I concurrently used a different account to make training videos, that is the only thing it was used for. Two months ago I played a third account for one month because I felt safer doing so. Right now I am not playing but hope to be able to play again after a suitable break." -Stoxtrader

      = 3 accounts
      da gibts doch diese tische mit dem symbol "e" (oder wars "s"?). will man auf die tische, kommt ein popup, dass möglicherweise jemand von cr/stox an den tischen sitzt, und unter einem anderen account die session aufnimmt.

      also im endeffekt "nur" 2 accounts ...
    • archicat
      Dabei seit: 12.01.2007 Beiträge: 2.350
      Bis jetzt gleicht das da eher einer Hexenjagd.
      Konkrete Beweise hat keiner. Auch wenn einige Handanalysen wohl sehr bealstend sind.
      Die Vorwürfe sind bis jetzt nur anonym. Das sind nen paar 2+2er die sich wieder als Anwälte des "Volkes" aufspielen.
      Sollte das Ganze aber stimmen und Stox das zugeben, wäre was schon ein gewaltiges Ding.

      Wenn das so weiter geht, seh ich für Onlinepoker harte Zeiten aufkommen.
      Je mehr Skandale, desto mehr Probleme das Ganze zu rechtfertigen.
    • TeK1337
      Dabei seit: 18.01.2005 Beiträge: 1.546
      finde das jetzt nicht so aufregend
    • Acidbrain
      Dabei seit: 04.02.2007 Beiträge: 5.956
      Er gibt die multiaccounts doch zu. + softplay abkommen etc.
      das ganze ist ma wieder sauasozial. gerade in den capgames wird viel mehr preflop gespielt und es kommt vorrangig darauf an seine range richtig anzupassen.
      klar boosted es die eigene edge, wenn man für alle anderen wieder unknown ist.

      ich denke mittlerweile, dass alle leute die in PokerWgs wohnen mehr oder weniger bescheissen. Ist einfach zu einfach und fliegt eh nie auf bzw kann nciht nachgewiesen werden wenn man einfach mal unter anderen accounts spielt
    • taschendamenfalter
      Dabei seit: 31.07.2009 Beiträge: 1.953
      hat ja einen interessanten verlauf genommen, siehe post 933 (Seite 63) und 971 (Seite 65) im originalthread.
    • hackfleesch
      Dabei seit: 09.10.2006 Beiträge: 1.664
      is sowas keine news wert?
    • JuliCash
      Dabei seit: 31.07.2006 Beiträge: 946
      ich weiß noch ganz früher hat stoxtrader ja auch vids für gemacht oder?
    • Pokerfu
      Dabei seit: 11.02.2008 Beiträge: 7.523
      stoxtrader ist doch der Gründer von Stoxxpoker? Oder täusche ich mich da? Naja hauptsache jmd. haut ihn bei den nächsten liveevents ordentlich aufs Maul, sofern sich die Gerüchte bestätigen. Der Idiot schadet jeden einzelnen Pokerspieler mit seinen Betrügereien und das will n Vorbild sein? So ein Versager.